Struggling, help with GSD please

[Kissy1921]

Hello to everybody and thank you for letting me join. I desperately need some help as feel at the moment we are sinking and not sure what to do next .

I have a GSD Molly, who is 3 yrs old and all of her life until March this year she had struggled with loose poos with undigested food in, some days the amount of poo that came out of her was four times the amount of food she had been fed. On the odd day it would be firm but always runny at the end, ranging from colours to grey, pale brown, dark brown and often with a lot of mucous.

Vet visits only offered more antibiotics, more pro-kolin paste, more Hillas recovery food, or chicken and rice and her life became a vicious circle. We tried different foods, different feeding amounts, different times of meals, nothing seemed to work so I started to research, which led me to EPI. She had every symptom going, loose poo, rumbling tummy and hunger, however she never really lost any weight. Our vet wasn't interested in my questions asking if it could be this and advised I feed Hills i/d or a similar recovery diet.

I then took advice from an EPI page on facebook and started her on enzymes. Not sure what ones to even try I settled for Amyladol 90, which is a plant based enzyme. I also took advice from a nutritionist and we devised a home cooked diet for Molly, 75% protein, 25% veggies, 5% liver, calcium supplement and oily fish twice a week. She is fed 3 small meals of 300grams a day, each had one and a half Amyladol 90 tablets, crushed and mixed into her food, no incubation. Within a couple of days her poos changed to always formed, with maybe the odd one or two days a month slightly soft but she would soon revert back to normal poos.

I then researched further and started her on Chemeyes B12 , she has two capsules a day crushed into her food, and finally we seemed to have fixed her stomach issues. This was all in March 2023 and she has been stable, lovely poops, lovely coat, bundles of energy, happy little girl.

Update to December 2023 ............ things started to change......and I have kept a diary as follows:

Friday 22nd December woke me up with urgent need to go out, had a massive pile of poo at 1am………. 3 x more runny loads of poo in garden first thing in the morning containing undigested chicken , nothing after 9am.

Saturday 23rd December, hard poo in morning, all fine. Fed canned chappie ( her go to remedy food that normally sorts things out with boiled chicken to be on safe side, added pro-kolin.

Sunday 24th December, all ok, kept on the Chappie and chicken and pro-kolin.

Monday 25th December all ok so started to go back to normal diet fading out the Chappie.

Tuesday 26th December, she got up at 6.30am went straight outside, massive soft poo, just how she was before we started the Amyladol 90. Another 2 piles in garden, again with undigested food in, light tan colour , nothing after 10am, went back to chappie and chicken. Did some reading up and learnt that maybe the plant based enzymes weren't strong enough so decided to change her enzymes to Pro Enzorb, I had some in the cupboard that I had bought, just never used as the Amyladol 90 seemed to be doing the trick and i didn't want to break what was already fixed. I gave her one opened pro-enzorb capsule sprinkled onto her meal and fed.

Wed 27th December, all ok, nice formed poo at 3pm in afternoon. Continued with the pro-enzorb.

Thursday 28th, woke me up again at 1am in the morning, massive poo, some hard, some soft, normal poo colour, dark brown. Woke me up again at 3am, two little piles of light tan liquid, Fed chappie and chicken for breakfast, same for lunch and supper, continued with one Pro-enzorb capsule in each meal. At 10pm in the evening, she vomited up a load of yellow bile with her tea in it that she had been fed at 8pm, undigested. This was followed an hour later by two piles of white frothy vomit, then she went to sleep. I called our vet to get advice and he said to monitor overnight but if she continued to vomit to take her in as she would get dehydrated.

Friday 29th Dec, today............ she didn't want her normal breakfast this morning so we tried her with a protein bar, one of her favourites, she has one everyday, usually after lunch and about half an hour later it came back up surrounded in brown liquid. In herself she is happy, running around, not complaining, so we took her for her morning trip to the field as usual where she did a poo, two nice brown firm logs, one softer light brown squashy log and then what looks like a dollop of light brown ice cream on top, will try to add picture.

[img]https://kissy1921.imgbb.com//img]

When we came home from the field she asked for some food so we have only given her some small pieces of boiled beef and chicken, this was an hour ago and she has kept it down.

My question is, do you think the change to pro-enzorb has upset her? And how would you go forward with this, persist with them or go back to the Amyaldol 90 and try to up the dosage?

I have some slippery elm tree bark powder on order from amazon that should be here today and also have some unopened four leaf rover 'Protect' in the cupboard for such times but am loath to give her anything else and make her worse without your knowledgeable advise.

Thanks so much in advance for any help you can offer.

[jilbert57]

Wow congratulations for being so proactive with your pup.
I would strongly suggest, if you can, to have your vet run the cTli test and B12 on your pup to see if it is Epi you are dealing with. (There are other diseases that have symptoms of Epi)Your pup needs to be food fasted 8- 12 hrs before the test.
I am not familiar with Proenzorb but you might need more capsules a day. Can you take a picture of the box where it tells how much enzyme is in each capsule?)
I would suggest the vomiting might be SID/SIBO. I would add in slippery elm twice a day according to weight.
https://epi4dogs.com/slippery-elm/
I will contact one of our UK staff.

Jill

[Kissy1921]

Hi Jill, thanks so much for your reply. The writing on the box is tiny, so I have copied the details from their website:

Protexin Peo-Enzorb is a supplement which supports Exocrine Pancreatic Function. Pro-Enzorb Capsules contain a highly active blend of three pancreatic enzymes; Lipase, Amylase and Protease.

These enzymes are purified and concentrated and made into micropellets which are coated with a special enteric-coating. This coating protects the enzymes from the low pH of the stomach allowing them to reach the small intestine, where their digestive action is actually required.

Once in the alkaline environment of the duodenum, the enteric-coating is broken down, releasing the pancreatic enzymes which act to digest fats, carbohydrates and proteins.

Each capsule contains:

480mg Pancreatin enteric-coated micro-pellets
Lipase 27,050 Ph. Eur. U. (minimum)
Amylase 22,604 Ph. Eur. U. (minimum)
Protease 1,325 Ph. Eur. U. (minimum)
Enterococcus faecium (NCIMB 10415) E1707 1 x 108 CFU
Cyanocobalamin (Vitamin B12) 1mg

The Amyladol 90s she was originally on and which we have gone back to for now are the following formula:

Ingredients
Additives in 1 tablet *1k-Enzymes*: Amylase 13 400 Ph.Eur.u. Lipase 9 200 Ph.Eur.u. Proteases 960 Ph.Eur.u. *Composition* maltodextrin

With regards to the vet and tests, Molly is a rescue and extremely vet reactive, to the point that she will shiver and shake, wee and poop herself as we struggle to get her through the door and then attempts to bite the vet. Our vet hasnt pursued the EPI route and simply says change diet, have antibiotics so we haven't pushed for the tests etc. Is there any other way she can be tested at all?


Thanks so much for your help.

[jilbert57]

Hi Dawn, thank you for that information. I have contacted a UK staff and she will look at it when she is back home.
Do you have a mobile vet who can come to the house and draw blood and submit it perhaps?
There is a Schebo test that is not definitive but might help. Enzyme Diane said she is out of the tests until March.
I did find this company you could call and ask about it.
https://bbpetsupplies.com/product/canin ... -test-kit/

Jill

[Kissy1921]

Thanks Jill

No such things as mobile vets here where we are but thankyou for the idea. We dont have visitors as Molly can't cope, hides in the corner and poos herself bless her.

If we have to have anyone in the house like workmen etc then one of us takes molly out in the car which she absolutely loves.

Look forward to hearing from your uk member.

Dawn x

[Eddiespaghetti]

I had a similar issue with my pup. Going to the vet every two weeks and was just given antibiotics and probiotics. My dog also hates the vet. I had to get a muzzle in order to get blood work done on him.
You provided a lou of information and I think I sifted through it, but I could be wrong.
For starters, you want to stay away from plant based enzymes. You will want to look into pork/porcine enzymes. The plant based ones will be for the dogs with pork intolerance. If need be you can use the plant ones but will have to give more as they are usually not as strong as the pork ones.
I also went the route of giving enzymes before the cTLI test. If they are having a positive reaction to the enzymes, it does narrow down the possibilities. Since this has been going on for months I doubt it is pancreatitis.
I think you are on the correct path with the enzymes, B12, and slippery elm. As Jilbert has said it is always best to get an actual diagnosis. I do understand that is not always easy.
The sudden changes might be something as simple as she needs more enzymes. Some dogs after a while will just need more enzymes. It could be a SID flare up, which the slippery elm should help. There are other options, but without a complete diagnosis I am a little hesitant to offer.

[jilbert57]

Ok, look into the company for the noninvasive test I sent if you have time.

Jill

[Kissy1921]

I am looking to try and get the non invasive test, thanks Jill.
Could you advise how much slippery elm powder to give? When to give it, with meals or before?
She is 34 kg and has 3 meals of 300gram per day and a handful of biscuits before bed.
Thanks

[jilbert57]

1/8 tsp for dogs under 10lbs,
¼ tsp for dogs 10lbs to 30lbs,
½ tsp for dogs 30lbs to 80lbs,
3/4 tsp for dogs 80lbs to 100lbs,
1 tsp for dog 100/+lbs.

I mixed with a little warm water, let gel and mixed in breakfast and dinner.

Jill

[Patsy]

Hi,
I have just written a long post, pressed preview and it disappeared. !! Grrrr I’ll try again.
Patsy