Vet advice

[Eddiespaghetti]

Helo everyone,
I took Eddie to the vet for a routine checkup. Everything is good. All his normal blood work came back within range.
The vet recommended to increase his enzymes to 2 teaspoons per meal. We did increase his enzymes as the vet saw undigested food in his poop. Eddie gets 1/3 cup of taste of the wild Appalachian valley and 2.75 oz of of nature's recipe chicken chunks in gravy. He now gets 3/4 teaspoon of enzyme Diane 8x
My question is, was the vet using some weird metric, or should I actually increase to 2 teaspoons? This vet has treated one other dog for EPI in his 30 years as a vet. It is possible he doesn't quite understand how it all works?

[Olesia711]

Hi Jeremy,

Your vet's premise is on the right track... but quite honestly..... i think he "over-shot the run way" .... hahahaha.

The undigested food could be from not enough enzymes to address that particular food composition for YOUR dog's gut ... BUT..... to more than double the enzyme dose is a little excessive....

After all.... the 8x is a lot stronger than 6x and you giving 3/4 of a tsp of enzymes for approximately 3/4 cups (or a little less) of food.

SO..... often when the enzymes are not addressing a particular diet, then what you can do is slightly increase the enzymes... or find out what ingredient in the diet is not agreeing with your dog's EPI digestive system. Often times, there is nothing really wrong, but rather it is a too much of a certain type of veggie (like corn) that is not easily digested, simply put.... too much fiber in a particular food that is just as easily digested........

Personally i would try increasing the enzymes to 1 level tsp of enzymes per what you are feeding... and see if THAT improves the poo composition.... i would not do 2 tsps per the amount of food you are currently feeding. Are you able to recognize what type of food particle is not being digested? If so that would REALLY help you identify what may not be agreeing.... or that you simply need to give a pinch more enzymes overall..

Other than the above.... what you can do is list every single ingredient in the diet you are feeding now..... and cross reference with a different diet....where some of the ingredients are not duplicated.... if you do this multiple times with multiple diets, you'd be amazed at what you discover that you dog best tolerates and what your dog doesn't tolerate so well.. Sometimes it's not a complete disaster but rather certain ingredients will make the poo be just "slightly" off. This can be a long drawn out process but well worth figuring out.......

SOmetimes it is something not what we expect... for example.... sometimes it maybe that MORE fiber is needed, or it could be that less fiber....
I'd be very interested in hearing your thoughts on this.

[Eddiespaghetti]

The vet did the rectal exam and checked the anal sacks. He then went to the back and came back a couple minutes later and told us there was food in his poo. Didn't say what.
We actually just increased to 3/4 teaspoon after the vet exam. He was getting a 1/2 teaspoon. I know sometimes dogs will need more enzymes long term, which is understandable. I was just shocked by increasing 4 times with no middle ground. The vet was also concerned the poo was sticky. We have also increased his Tylan because we think the SIDs is getting out of control. This is also understandable because he is on two immune suppressants and it is not uncommon for him to have more infections/bacteria than the average dog.
As for the food, I did cross compare when we switched from a different recipe of Taste of the Wild. He has been eating this for about 2 months now and never had an issue until recently. His poo has been pretty great, sometimes a little soft. I started noticing his poo has been a little off for a week now, which is why I wanted to do a checkup. I wanted to be sure nothing else was going on.
My current plan is to do the 3/4th teaspoon for about a week, along with the increased Tylan. If everything improves we will start to cut back the Tylan to maintenance levels. If everything is still good we will work on reducing the enzymes by 1/8th a teaspoon. If nothing works we will look into replacing his food.

I know some dogs will eventually need to get increased enzymes. I was just trying to wrap my head around that much of an increase. I was seeing if someone knew something I didn't.

[Olesia711]

Thanks Jeremy for the added information and for your thoughts..... i agree with you ... Yes, and increase is probably needed as it does sound like SID is getting a little out of control, and it most likely is due to something in the food not being 100% optimal for Eddie (or it could be the 2 immune suppressant meds that are triggering this) .... but the dramatic increase the vet recommended seemed wayyyyy too much IMHO... i think your plan is best.

Good luck and do Keep us posted!

[Eddiespaghetti]

I am glad we are in agreement. I was getting worried I was messing up his treatment. I know there is a chance (small) he might need 2 teaspoons per meal, but I am going to work my way up to whatever is needed from here.
I just figured since every enzyme says per meal, that is what he was basing his information on.

[Olesia711]

we were actually able to get some enzyme companies to revise that erroneously dosage instruction, unfortunately not all companies were willing to change the instructions.

Also... the increased Tylan ought to help... but if you are not planning to do the full 45 days of Tylan, i would at least do 15 to 20 days of Tylan.

Again, please keep us psoted.

[lylzzf3841]

As a very new member to the forum and new to EPI, I have to admit the whole 'cups, tsp' measurement totally confuses me ... To me, enzyme dosage should depends on foods' energy density, not volume... e.g. a cup of porridge and a cup of ground freeze dried beef are completely different thing. Former one probably only has 20g carbs, and later one can have 30g protein and 30g fat, and the enzyme needed for those should be significantly different...

If we could have something like, x gram enzymes/100 calories.. it would be much easier to figure things out

[Olesia711]

you are actually correct... to be 100% accurate.....one would need to calculate the enzyme dose according to not the density, but the actual fat content of a meal since pancreatic enzymes are highest in Lipase enzymes.

however, practicality comes in and maybe less than 1% of pet owners would be able to accurately do the calculations, much less have the time to constantly and very minutely adjust the dose when the fat content changes. SO... for our pets, using the simple measurement method of 1 tsp of powdered enzymes per 1 cup of food (dry with moisture added to the food) and/or 1/2 tsp to 3/4 tsp of powdered enzymes per wet food works best for everyone.... and mostly keeps our pets EPI well managed.

[Eddiespaghetti]

I definitely don't disagree. There is also a lot of variables in play. Grain vs grain free, fiber content, protein content, and how many enzymes each individual dog makes. I have seen cTLIs at 0.2 and some in 7-8s. It can't be done to calculate how much enzymes are needed for each dog and their diet. It's why I recommend to start high, get the dog stabilized and then slowly cut back. While some, recommend doing it in reverse. It's not a perfect system, but life rarely is.

[Eddiespaghetti]

I should mention that Eddie is on tylan for life. We are just increasing the dosage, until we see significant improvement