I need help stabilizing max!!

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
Barb
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Re: I need help stabilizing max!!

Post by Barb » 14 Aug 2018, 15:15

Hi Amanda,

A couple of questions: I think you said you are ordering enzymes from Enzyme Diane, right? What strength are you getting, the 6X or the 8X. It will say it right at the top of the gold bag. The reason I am asking is that will determine how much enzyme you give per cup. If it is the 6X, you give 1 teaspoon enzymes per cupl If it is the 8X, you give 3/4 teaspoon per cup.


Also you said you were giving B12 pills for a couple of years and they weren't working. Can you tell us what they were called ? In order for them to work for an EPI dog, the B12 has to have Intrinsic factor Wonderlabs is a company many of us get our B12 pills from. If you go online, you will find the Wonderlabs company has B12 (it is called methylcobalamin) but the name of the item is either Trinfac B or Pet Factor......they are both the same, they just changed the name. The important thing is they have the Intrinsic Factor for EPI dogs so the B12 will be absorbed.

Let us know.

Barb

Barb
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Posts: 918
Country: United States
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Re: I need help stabilizing max!!

Post by Barb » 14 Aug 2018, 15:27

Amanda, here is the Wonderlabs site.

https://www.wonderlabs.com/



TRINFAC-B Intrinsic Factor Vitamin B12 as Methylcobalamin
Item: 6881
120 Capsules
Learn More
$16.99


PET Factor B-12 w/ Intrinsic Factor
Item: K96882
180 capsules
$24.99

PET Factor B-12 w/Intrinsic Factor
Item: K9688
90 Capsules
$12..74

Barb

amandaa
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Location: Hayward
Country: United States
State: California
Pet name: Max
My name: Amanda

Re: I need help stabilizing max!!

Post by amandaa » 14 Aug 2018, 15:29

Before taking the Tylan he was constantly throwing up, really bad tummy noises, and since taking the pills it has stopped the throwing up, and the tummy noises I hear not as often. He still regurgitates water and sometime some kibble and his vet told me that he may need to be put back on antibiotics if it continues. We just came from a vet apt. last week. I can’t remember the brand we used it’s been months and we tossed out the pills once he began to get b12 shots. I’ll catch him trying to eat his brothers food. He doesn’t like the powder. I had taken him to a specialist back in dec. of 2017 and we changed his food and tried some new things, and it didn’t work at all it made it worse. She told me to go back to what I was giving him which was his kibble with enzymes and cheese, but when I switched him back over his stomach seemed more sensitive. Before that apt I use to put cheese and his poop was good. It was perfect but it wasn’t messy, and after that apt, when I tried put him back to his same diet his tummy couldn’t hold the cheese and would have nasty and messy poop. So I stopped adding cheesing in his food for some months now. I can try adding cheese again to see if it’ll help. When I took him to that apt with his specialist back in dec. I told her everything And that I knew he had SIBO, but I need a vet to confirm and give me meds or advice. She felt around his tummy and listened to the I formation I gave her and agreed that he had epi and something else, which was most likely SIBO. But it wasn’t until I went back to her a second time, feb of 2018, and she gave me the tylan pills to help with his poop




Miss Maddie Moo wrote: 14 Aug 2018, 15:02 The fact that he isnt eating can indicate a couple of things.
1 If the b12 is low this can indciate that you havent eradciated the SIBO it may be that you need a more hard bat antibtoic like Metro or your tylan dose isnt correct.
2 Which B12 tablets did you use we reommend the B12 form wonderlabs with intrinsic factor in.
3 will he eat food without the enzymes ---or is it just the enzymed food that he wont touch trying to determine what is going on ???

If the SIBO is bad he will have a prrly stomach and wont eat.
If its the enzymed food then we need to mask it with parmesen or sardines something high smelling.
Or it could be that he has another condition of we can rule the others out this is a possibilty.

amandaa
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Posts: 14
Location: Hayward
Country: United States
State: California
Pet name: Max
My name: Amanda

Re: I need help stabilizing max!!

Post by amandaa » 14 Aug 2018, 15:51

I order the 6x. When he was first diagnosed we used the enzyme pills the vet gave us for a couple of months but soon realized it wasn’t working. We did our research and found enzyme Diane. My sister had emailed her and talked about our pup and what he was going through. She told us to try 1/2 teaspoon per cup of kibble. I already gave him breakfast and he’s eaten half of it but for his next meal I will definitely do a full teaspoon. I just went through the medication shelf we have and actually found his old pills. They’re the wonderlabs pet factor b12 with folic acid and intrinsic factor. He’s only ever been tested twice. The first time was when he was diagnosed with epi when he was a round a year old, he’s three now. And the second time was to check his b12 level back in dec. of 2017. He was taking the b12 pills for two years, 2 pills a day. When he was tested in dec his b12 level was extremely low for having been taking b12 pills for two years. So we stopped giving the pills and have been doing the shots. I’m not sure what else I need to test him for or how often he should get certain things tested.





Barb wrote: 14 Aug 2018, 15:15 Hi Amanda,

A couple of questions: I think you said you are ordering enzymes from Enzyme Diane, right? What strength are you getting, the 6X or the 8X. It will say it right at the top of the gold bag. The reason I am asking is that will determine how much enzyme you give per cup. If it is the 6X, you give 1 teaspoon enzymes per cupl If it is the 8X, you give 3/4 teaspoon per cup.


Also you said you were giving B12 pills for a couple of years and they weren't working. Can you tell us what they were called ? In order for them to work for an EPI dog, the B12 has to have Intrinsic factor Wonderlabs is a company many of us get our B12 pills from. If you go online, you will find the Wonderlabs company has B12 (it is called methylcobalamin) but the name of the item is either Trinfac B or Pet Factor......they are both the same, they just changed the name. The important thing is they have the Intrinsic Factor for EPI dogs so the B12 will be absorbed.

Let us know.

Barb

Barb
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Posts: 918
Country: United States
State: New Jersey

Re: I need help stabilizing max!!

Post by Barb » 14 Aug 2018, 16:35

OK, thanks. Do you have any numbers for Max's B12 level in December? I am amazed that his B12 was low while taking two pills a day with intrinsic factor.

Barb

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Riley's Mom
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Re: I need help stabilizing max!!

Post by Riley's Mom » 14 Aug 2018, 16:55

I'm sorry to hear you are struggling with your pup.
I too have a picky eater that sometimes cleans her plate and sometimes won't even eat half of her food. My girl seems to keep herself at a steady weight on her own this way....but it is frustrating for me.
I try different things to keep her interested, changing what I top her food with (cheese is her favorite), I also make bone broth to mix her enzymes in instead of water. She will not eat food with enzymes mixed in water--acts like I am trying to poison her. :lol:
I also wonder about the B12 levels. Many dogs need injections more often than once a month. I have switched to the pills, but when I did injections I had to give them once a week. When my girl's B12 is low her appetite is poor, her anxiety is worse and her poops aren't as good. So maybe you could discuss with your vet about injections more often.
Sometimes when the poops won't get consistent, the food doesn't agree...maybe that is an area you could look at as well.
Elisabeth

Riley is a 10 year old Labradoodle. She was diagnosed with EPI in 2014.
She currently eats Taste of the Wild, I cup in the morning, 2 cups in the evening, each meal with 1 Wonderlabs B12 sprinkled over her dinner. Enzymes are EnzymeDiane, 1 tsp per cup of food, mixed in home made bone broth. No other supplements or meds at this time.
Riley currently weighs about 44 pounds, which is pretty heavy for her.

amandaa
Member
Posts: 14
Location: Hayward
Country: United States
State: California
Pet name: Max
My name: Amanda

Re: I need help stabilizing max!!

Post by amandaa » 14 Aug 2018, 20:08

I do not. When he took the blood work they Emailed me and said his levels were really low and showed me how to give him his shots. I can call and see if they can send me his resaults through email to get his numbers


Barb wrote: 14 Aug 2018, 16:35 OK, thanks. Do you have any numbers for Max's B12 level in December? I am amazed that his B12 was low while taking two pills a day with intrinsic factor.

Barb

amandaa
Member
Posts: 14
Location: Hayward
Country: United States
State: California
Pet name: Max
My name: Amanda

Re: I need help stabilizing max!!

Post by amandaa » 14 Aug 2018, 20:15

I use to use cheese in his food but stopped because I had tried a new diet that didn’t work so I went back to his old diet with kibble cheese and enzymes and his tummy seemed a lot more sensitive and couldn’t hold the cheese down even if I just put a little down. How Do you prepare the broth. I’ve noticed before sometimes when I give him his b12 shots, he’ll get an appetite back. But the last two months that he’s gotten his shots he hasn’t seem to get his appetite back like before. I think I’ll get his blood work done again to see how often he needs it.


quote="Riley's Mom" post_id=823 time=1534280125 user_id=71]
I'm sorry to hear you are struggling with your pup.
I too have a picky eater that sometimes cleans her plate and sometimes won't even eat half of her food. My girl seems to keep herself at a steady weight on her own this way....but it is frustrating for me.
I try different things to keep her interested, changing what I top her food with (cheese is her favorite), I also make bone broth to mix her enzymes in instead of water. She will not eat food with enzymes mixed in water--acts like I am trying to poison her. :lol:
I also wonder about the B12 levels. Many dogs need injections more often than once a month. I have switched to the pills, but when I did injections I had to give them once a week. When my girl's B12 is low her appetite is poor, her anxiety is worse and her poops aren't as good. So maybe you could discuss with your vet about injections more often.
Sometimes when the poops won't get consistent, the food doesn't agree...maybe that is an area you could look at as well.
[/quote]

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Riley's Mom
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Re: I need help stabilizing max!!

Post by Riley's Mom » 14 Aug 2018, 21:04

Bone broth is not difficult to make, just takes a little time.
I googled it when I was first learning and found a video by a vet called Dr Becker. Sorry, tried to copy the link but I'm not tech savvy enough to pull it off...lol
Basically, I save bones from whatever I cook, freeze them until I need them and sometimes get more from the butcher. Then I put them in a crock pot, cover with water and add 4 tablespoons of Bragg raw organic apple cider vinegar. I cook this mixture for 24 hours on low. Once it's cool enough to deal with, I pull the bones out and freeze in small amounts that can be used within a few days. I just pull a container out as needed.
This is the only way my girl will eat the enzymes....
And cheese is just an example of something you can use for a topper, find something your pup will tolerate, but that entices him to eat.
Elisabeth

Riley is a 10 year old Labradoodle. She was diagnosed with EPI in 2014.
She currently eats Taste of the Wild, I cup in the morning, 2 cups in the evening, each meal with 1 Wonderlabs B12 sprinkled over her dinner. Enzymes are EnzymeDiane, 1 tsp per cup of food, mixed in home made bone broth. No other supplements or meds at this time.
Riley currently weighs about 44 pounds, which is pretty heavy for her.

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Olesia711
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Re: I need help stabilizing max!!

Post by Olesia711 » 14 Aug 2018, 23:45

HI Amanda,

Sorry i am just now getting to your post. Maddie covered the variety of possibilities, if you could answer some of her questions that would better help us help you..... but just reading what you have written so far... it could be possible that what you are dealing with is both low B12 and SID (formerly called SIBO). Unfortunately, SID can encourage low B12. And 5% fiber content food... that may also be a contributing factor. I found that for us personally a 3.5% fiber content food works MUCH better than 4% fiber content food- -never realized that just 1/2% could make that much difference.... so you might want to try a food with a lot less fiber content first. Start with a small bag of food (just in case it doesn't work) ... maybe look at Taste of the Wild Pacific Stream... (you can get it from Cheweys) and i think that it is only 3% fiber content... see if this helps ... and i would order Wonderlabs Pet Factor B12 https://www.wonderlabs.com/itemleft.php?itemnum=K9688... especially if your pup had low B12 before. Unfortunately with a chronic condition (and EPI is a chronic condition), if the B12 is low , even after you bring up the B12, you will then have to keep the dog on a maintenance B12 regimen for the rest of it's life....for some reason, vets miss this little detail.... maybe because with jsut low B12 and if a chronic condition is not involved you do not need to supplement for the rest of their lives.............,

anyway... hope this helps and as mentioned, please realize that although this most likely is EPI related.... sometimes it is not EPI related.........so we have to be open to other possibilities.......

Looking forward to hearing more from you :)
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

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