Question about Slippery Elm and poo

[Olesia711]

First poo is EXCELLENT
2nd poo could be a wee be softer from activity/stress of just being up and about and/or the gut flora needs to be slightly adjusted ... your plan to give Slippery Elm another day is a good next step.

Or it could be that the food is not exactly optimal. easy test is to see if slightly increasing the amount of enzymes make any improvement.... if so... then you need to modify the diet.

The other thing that might be going on is that you might be giving the right amount of enzymes (CREON, yes??) BUT with CREON... sometimes it is the technique you are using to give it that might need to be adjusted so that it is processed at a more appropriate timing.

[Cheb1313!]

Hi Olesia.

OK I didn't know about the creon thing .

So he was on 1 tablet which is 25000 as you mentioned last week I upped it to 1 and 1/4 the 1/4 I was sprinkling on hos food and the capsule I was wrapping in lactose free cheese.

For the next few days I am going to loose the fish in his diet and just give him the kibble and the Roo mince also yesterday took him down to three meals and instead of having two poos this morning he had one !

I also today didn't wrap the capsule in cheese I just chucked it at him and he swallows whole, Would I be better then do you think dispersing the Croen over his food instead ?

[Olesia711]

hi Cheryl,

Yes... giving CREON is all about trial and error not only with the dose but also with "how" you administer it.

Some dogs do best with the capsule given whole, , others do better when the capsule is opened and the little pellets are sprinkled on top of some moist food and feed immediately (you don't want the coating on the little pellets to disintegrate from the moisture)... and some do better with given the capsule whole right after dinner while others do better when given the capsule about 3 or 4 minutes before dinner .

SO ... pick one of the methods mentioned above and stick with it for just a few days... see if the poos improve or worsen.... then try one of the other techniques.... just be sure that the food is the same with each trial so that you are comparing "apples to apples".

Ahh.... that one poo was it decent or so-so??

Since you give the capsule whole, but are also eliminating the fish.... try whole capsules for a few days... then (while on the same diet) try opening the capsules and sprinkling the pellets on top of the food and serving immediately for a few days.... if you can take pics of the poo to truly compare both methods to see which one appears to work better

[Cheb1313!]

Hi Olesia.

Oh wow OK - I didn't realize it would be that specific.

It was only yesterday lunch time that he had the last fish and I think I'm right in saying that it takes 24 hours for the body to digest?- He just had a 5-6 poo on the list

So I am going to up the Creon to one Capsule and half instead of 1/4 which I will sprinkle on his food keeping the food just the roo and Taste of the wild Prairie, if that makes no change come Monday shall I then add a probiotic with the slippery Elm, and carry on the same food and Creon measurement until Wed and see if that makes a difference OR should I try a different method of administering the creon with the same food IE a few minutes before dinner or after. Do you think I should try the different methods of Creon and take out the slippery Elm ?

[Olesia711]

CHeryl,

The transit time (food to poo) can be anywhere between 12 hours (unless blowout diarrhea) and 72 hours!!) it all depends on the dog. the way we "unscientifically" test this is to chop up a raw carrot... put some in 1 meal. watch all the poops afterwards and record how many hours after the carrot included meal before you see those carrot chunks show up in the poo....... this is how you can tell what YOUR dog's transit time is (at this particular time frame)....

When trying to figure out what is going on with an EPI dog... pick one "method" at a time.... and i like to go with the easiest method first... you want to be consistent in what you are doing a trial on.

You need to decide of you are going to try testing the food or the CREON dose or the CREON application....

1. Since you are cutting out the fish (you have already started testing the food... so continue with this).. and give the SAME amount of CREON you were giving. try the fish elimination for about 3 days. and record the results. (do the carrot trick so you have a better understanding of the transit time).

2. if no change THEN try the exact same meal (no fish), but open up 1 +1/4 CREON capsules and sprinkle on the food. this you only need to try for 2 days and if there is a change you will notice fairly quickly.

3. DEpending on what the results are.... PLEASE LET US KNOW.... then we can help you to decide what the next steps should be............. either test to see if maybe it is the Taste of the Wild that doesn't agree.... OR..... if it is the Roo that doesn't agree..... OR..... if you need to try giving 1+1/2 CREON.... OR..... i

It's all about trying process and elimination... BUT you need to be consistent and then you need to proof it..

Afterall.... it most likely is that this is SID getting out of control... but you need to try things one at a time to figure out the underlying cause...................and we'll help you as best we can

[Cheb1313!]

Hello!

I will certainly try the carrot method.

So I did have a blip yesterday and I didn't know what to do , but yesterday evening

I upped his creon to 1 and 1/2 capsules sprinkled on the food instead of the capsule down the throat and the 1/4 sprinkled and I have taken out the slipper Elm. ( hes never been that great with these things )
I still just have him on Roo and TOW

So am I right in thinking just by possibly upping the Creon and the way you administer it can combat SID ?

He has had a number 2 poo this morning which is great, and so far no gurgles or Belches- Today so far i am chilled

[Cheb1313!]

I will say since he has been on the taste of the wild priarie, he is itching much less !

[Olesia711]

Good!!!! Continue with the Roo & Taste of the Wild with the 1+1/2 CREON opened and sprinkled on top of his food and served immediately.. ...
Do this for 2 more days.

DO NOT change anything.... and continue to let us know how this goes.

If the poos are good at the end of 2 more days doing this..... then i suspect the underlying issue triggering SID/SIBO/Dysbiosis to be getting out of good control was probably the enzymes not being processed in a timely manner hence the food not getting the benefit of all the enzymes, meaning he was being under-dosed giving SID a window of opportunity to get out of control.

SOOOOOOOo if this turns out to be the case, then by the 3rd day, what you need to do is add back the Basa Fish while keeping everything else the same.... and give this 2 more days to see if this proves that the fish wasn't a problem but rather the enzyme application was the problem.

This is how we figure things out Hopefully the underlying issue was the dosing technique. If not, no problem we will continue to work with you step by stpe to figure this out

[Cheb1313!]

You are a legend Olesia!

Thanks you soo much , I don't know what I would have done if I hadn't found you guys xxoo

[Greyden]

Hi Cheryl
You are absolutely correct - Olesia IS a legend!
One thing I haven't seen mentioned are the roles of pre-biotics (slippery elm) and probiotics (visbiome, proviable, forti flora , etc)
Prebiotics 'feed' the existing healthy gut bacteria and encourage their growth.
Probiotics introduce additional healthy gut bacteria that the slippery elm can feed.
You and Olesia have a great "try this then this" plan! At some point, though, you might want to add a probiotic.
We also use Creon for Dot. Just putting the capsules on her canned food seems to work for her.
We give her Slippery Elm when she seems to regress somewhat. It usually helps to get her back on track. She gets a probiotic everyday. We used Visbiome initially until Dot was fairly stable with SID treatment. Then it seemed to be too much for her. So we put her on FortiFlora and she has done well with it. FortiFlora is not popular on the forum but it seems to work well for Dot.
Don't know if any of this is helpful but sometimes it's been good for me to read about what others are doing/have done.
It took us a LONG time to get Dot's poo to look as good as your posted pic. Keep up the great work.