OH NOOOO-Loose stools out of the blue

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
Barb
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State: New Jersey

Re: OH NOOOO-Loose stools out of the blue

Post by Barb » 31 Mar 2023, 16:37

Wooohoooo! Great news. So glad to hear it was a relatively simple fix. Keep up the good work.

Barb

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dcougman
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Country: Canada
Pet name: mensch
My name: David Kauffman

Re: OH NOOOO-Loose stools out of the blue

Post by dcougman » 03 Apr 2023, 19:27

Hi
My GSD has been doing so well once we established a solid routine. He has gained all his weight back and his energy levels have been "normal" for a high drive working dog. He was able to certify as a SAR dog finally when we overcame and stabilized. We went through a reflux stage that seems to have resolved with twice daily feedings (morning and dinner time) and I now am feeding treats I made by soaking his normal kibble in enzymes and then dehydrating that for a couple of hours till dry again. I only had to use dry elm twice but I did increase his enzyme dosage for a couple of days from 1.5tsp per feeding to 2tsp. I am back to 1.5tsp.
Our enzymes are the Dogzme pancreatic support and our food is GO Carnivore (Chicken-turkey-duck mix) no grain with 34% Protein, 3% Fibre, 16% fat

That being said I have noticed a routine where the poop in the morning is dry and firm and normal. If I only take him out for an afternoon walk then his poop is firm and normal looking.

I notice the working dogs almost always poop when starting to walk as it seems they are preparing to work and the body eliminates automatically. When I work or walk multiple times during the day the 1st time he starts the poop is "normal". The 2nd poop after that is loose and more yellow toned and then if we do a 3rd start then the poop is soft pudding (small amount as there is nothing much left).

I wonder if you can think of the GI system goings on here. It seems to my layman's thinking that the enzymes that were in his gut are "used up" as he eliminates throughout the day and then replenished when he eats again at dinner. I have no idea why the remaining food (which has all been coated with enzymes) would be different. He does not pick up random stuff and is pretty well trained ;-) to ignore food on the ground when he works so I am sure there is nothing else getting into his system.

This routine of two normal poops and then progressively looser stools until dinner is very consistent.
Any thoughts from anyone?
Cheers and thanks for all the expertise all around. There is one more trained SAR K9 because of you all!!
David
Mensch is a 2YR old Czech Working line GSD; he has tested positive Sept 2022 on the fasting TLI. Results--- TLI <1, Folate 21, Cobalamin <111. Currently taking Dogzymes Pacreatic Support 1.5 teaspoons/2 cup feeding (feed 3x per day GO Carnivore GRAIN-FREE CHICKEN, TURKEY + DUCK ), Inject B12 1000ml 2x per month. No more poop eating, has gone from 60 to 81 in two months. Works as SAR K9. SO happy to have found this site. Thank you all!!!

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Olesia711
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Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
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Pet name: Izzy
My name: olesia

Re: OH NOOOO-Loose stools out of the blue

Post by Olesia711 » 03 Apr 2023, 20:00

Hi David and thank you for your SAR service and for you diligence in training Mensch (an EPI dog) to become a SAR dog!!!! LOVE it!!!! I did live-find SAR work and loved it with the dog that i had just before i got Izzy, my EPI dog...

SO.... i know exactly what you are referring to with the perfect poo... but then as the day goes on, the poos can get sloppy with activity... even with something as simple as taking them on walks.

Just so you know, this can happen to dogs even without EPI!

Supposedly there are multiple causes:
1. sometimes it is no big deal
2. sometimes it is because a little too much food is fed
3. sometimes it happens with stress, walking, running, playing, car ridge, vet's visits, etc...
4. sometimes it is because of gut flora imbalance (and seeing that all dogs with EPI have SID (small intestinal dysbiosis) this makes sense why we see it more often in EPI dogs....
5. sometimes it is because of some food sensitivity to one degree or another
6. sometimes it is that the current food composition is the balance for that particular dog's digestive system (this happened to me with my non-EPI dog)
7. sometimes if with an EPI dog, it could be that the enzymes are not potent enough or that enough are not being given for that particular diet.
8. and sometimes it is almost like the dog is eliminating too soon with the 2nd poo and things haven't had enough time to be properly processed. this usually is because the gut flora may be out of balance.

SOOOoooooo.... the DogZYme product you are using (to put it bluntly) is good stuff... and it also has good pre+probiotics in it... but i can't tell how much is included. HOwever.... i do think you might be under-dosing....and over time.... under-dosing can further mess up the gut flora imbalance.... it looks like you should be giving 2 tsps.....
Ingredients per 2 teaspoons (5.6 grams): Pancreatin 6X (Animal Pancreatic Tissue), Saccharomyces cerevisiae, Organic Yucca schidigera, Organic Milk Thistle, Choline Chloride, Dried Lactobacillus acidophilus Fermentation Product, Dried Bifidobacterium longum Fermentation Product, Dried Enterococcus faecium Fermentation Product, Dried Bacillus subtilis Fermentation Product

Lipase (not less than) 71,400 USP Units
Protease (not less than) 388,000 USP Units
Amylase (not less than) 460,000 USP Units
Organic Milk Thistle 100 mg
Organic Yucca Schidigera 100 mg
Choline Chloride 45 mg


Hopefully after increased enzymes, this will help.... if not.... then the next two things i would look at trying (one-at-a-time) would be to try a different food, something maybe not chicken based.
OR.... try adding a quality per+probiotic. Some products that others have had good luck with are:
Visbiome (vet)
Proviable (vet)
Mercola Complete Probiotics for dogs (amazon)
VetriScience Mega Probiotics (amazon)
BUT........... whenever adding a pre/probiotic product to the regimen, ALWAYS start with less than 1/2 the recommended dose and work your way up to a full dose over the course of a week or two.

ANd the last thing that i have not seen mentioned is B12. Over 80% of all dogs diagnosed with B12 do not have sufficient B12.... and sooner or later, all dogs with EPI need to be on a B12 regimen. Although this is not listed as one of the causes for good 1st poo and then sloppy poo there after.... if an EPI dog's B12 is not at the very least upper mid-range.... it WILL continue to decrease because SID (which all EPI dogs have) munches away at whatever B12 there is........... SO...........if not giving B12, i would. Talk to your vet about this. You can either do pills or shots (if needed). Was your dog's B12 ever tested?
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

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Olesia711
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Posts: 3858
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy
My name: olesia

Re: OH NOOOO-Loose stools out of the blue

Post by Olesia711 » 03 Apr 2023, 20:10

while i am thinking of it... if you decide to change food .... as it might be something like the duck that doesn't agree, or the chicken.... hard to guess at unless you start proofing one-protein at a time,,,,,

anyway.... maybe look at
1. Go! Solutions Carnivore Grain-Free Lamb + Wild Boar Recipe Dry Dog Food (this one looks best)
2. Go! Solutions Carnivore Grain-Free Salmon + Cod Recipe Dry Dog Food
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

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