Hoppy the EPI Foster Dog

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
Lulu
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Posts: 11
Country: United States
State: California
Pet name: Foster
My name: Lulu

Re: Hoppy the EPI Foster Dog

Post by Lulu » 19 Jan 2023, 10:37

Thank you so much Jill, Jean, Barb and Olesia for the awesome info. It's been 2 steps forward, 2 steps back and it's really great to have this support. I understand why this forum is so dedicated! She is the sweetest dog and it's hard to not get everything figured out faster. These EPI dogs really are special (in the best way).

I lowered her enzymes to 3/4 tsp per cup (Diane's 8x) and then switched her food to Nulo Grain free Turkey- 3.5% fiber, no lentilsi though it does have chickpeas and then later on Lima beans are listed. I'd like to switch to call of the wild someday, but I was out of dog food and this was the best option at the pet store :|

She's still on Metronidazole (flagyl)- and from the size of the bag, she is supposed to be for some time. And she still gets 1 1/2 tsp of fiber per cup of food. I'm not sure why, but it's what the Vet at the rescue said to do.

I have been logging her food/stool, but still just on paper until I can get the hang of the tracker. She's been on the new food for several days now, and her poop was worse and then better and now... liquid. I wanted to cry.

The good news is her energy is staying up and she looks like she's slowly gaining weight.

I'm going to keep the same routine for a few more days. The vet suggested adding rice to her food but I'm nervous to add so many carbs- feels counterintuitive? But again, I'm just learning.

Still waiting on B12 answers, but any thoughts or encouragement would be great! Thank you again! Really want this sweet girl feeling as good as possible!
Harper is a gorgeous and sweet, 1 1/2-year-old sable GSD. She was so close to losing her life when she was saved by a German Shepard rescue and tested for EPI. She's slowly gaining weight but is still on the time consuming journey of figuring out what works for her. Grateful every day for this forum.

Barb
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Re: Hoppy the EPI Foster Dog

Post by Barb » 19 Jan 2023, 17:33

I am wondering about that extra fiber (1 and 1/2 tsp. per cup) that you mentioned. That sounds like it would nullify the low fiber content of the food . Someone can correct me on this if I am not understanding it.

Barb

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Olesia711
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Re: Hoppy the EPI Foster Dog

Post by Olesia711 » 21 Jan 2023, 20:31

sorry i am so late in continuing this conversation, but i too am wondering about this extra fiber being added.

What kind of fiber is it and it is very possible that it is not agreeing with your dog... sometimes the only way to really tell if something is agreeing or not i to proof it. in which case, stop the fiber completely for 3 or 4 days.....(this should cover any/all transit times) and see if this improves or worsens the poo..... and then go back to giving the fiber and again, watch the poos... By doing this you will ascertain if the fiber is helping or hurting.
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

Barb
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Re: Hoppy the EPI Foster Dog

Post by Barb » 23 Jan 2023, 10:22

That's a great way to test it, Olesia.

Lulu, let us know what Hoppy's poos tell you.

Barb

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Olesia711
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Location: North Carolina
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Re: Hoppy the EPI Foster Dog

Post by Olesia711 » 23 Jan 2023, 11:19

thanks Barb. One of the EPI veterinarian researchers taught me this years ago when i was trying to identify a trigger with Izzy :)
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

Lulu
Member
Posts: 11
Country: United States
State: California
Pet name: Foster
My name: Lulu

Re: Hoppy the EPI Foster Dog

Post by Lulu » 23 Jan 2023, 22:04

Hi everyone! Thank you again for more helpful tips.

I haven't made any changes since my last post. Her poop has STILL been various degrees of a 7 score until this morning she had a 6. Her energy has been so much better than when I first brought her home and all she did was sleep, but I'm still worried because she can't go on with this diarrhea.

I don't believe they had her b12 levels checked- I'm trying to see when I can take her to the vet again, but in the meantime I'm going to order some supplements.

Thanks for the thoughts on fiber- I didn't give any tonight so we'll see why happens over the next few days.

Another thing that I only just realized might be an issue is that the original instructions she came with said to use 1/2 cup of water to mix the enzymes and then add 2 cups of dry food. It's very watery unless I let it sit for a very long time. I'm going to try less water.

Lastly, it's been tricky to get her to take her Metronidazole. We forgot to give it to her once and have given it to her late a couple of times. I'm wondering if that could be part of it, but she takes it 2x a day so it's always in her system.

Whew this is tough!

In the meantime- anyone have any fun tips for training without food? I don't want to give her treats until we sort this out, but she could use some mental stimulation!
Harper is a gorgeous and sweet, 1 1/2-year-old sable GSD. She was so close to losing her life when she was saved by a German Shepard rescue and tested for EPI. She's slowly gaining weight but is still on the time consuming journey of figuring out what works for her. Grateful every day for this forum.

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Olesia711
Founder & Research Director
Posts: 3857
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy
My name: olesia

Re: Hoppy the EPI Foster Dog

Post by Olesia711 » 23 Jan 2023, 22:35

oh dear, that a lot of water... just add enough water to moisten the food so that the enzymes can stick to the food... that's a good way to figure out how much water to add. you don't want the food swimming in the water.......


another thing is when they have too much diarrhea for too long, they can get dehydrated. try tenting the skin..... if it takes a long time to fall back, she might be dehydrated. If this is the case, you can give her unflavored children's Pedialyte to replenish any mineral she may have lost.........

also.... you mentioned she is on Metronidazole.... can you talk to the vet and ask if they can switch the Metronidazole to tylan? NOt only is metro not good for chronic gastro intestinal conditions, Many times Metro simply doesn't work... where as Tylan usually does...............
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

Lulu
Member
Posts: 11
Country: United States
State: California
Pet name: Foster
My name: Lulu

Re: Hoppy the EPI Foster Dog

Post by Lulu » 31 Jan 2023, 11:15

Hi Everyone,

Hoppy update... I haven't gotten an answer on switching to Tylan- the rescue is super busy and I need to nudge them again.

We've stayed the course on 3/4 tsp 8x Diane's Enzymes per cup (4-5 cups a day) Flagyl 2x a day and grain free, low fiber food (Nulo Freestyle Turkey). We stopped the additional fiber about 5 days ago (she used to get 3 teaspoons per meal). B12 and Slippery Elm arrives in the mail today!

Her stool is now mostly back to cow plops-- better than liquid, but was hoping for more progress, and I'm still hearing a lot of tummy sounds.

I was looking back at my chart and noticed that her poop was doing best when I was giving adding a couple of scoops of Honest Kitchen dehydrated food (this was not grain free, but as she was barely eating I was trying anything to get her to take her food). This was when she was also eating a food high in lentils... not sure what to make of that, but it's been in the back of my mind.

My latest question is: should I start adding a little slippery elm? And should I start at the same time as I start the b12? Or should I wait until she's done with the Flagyl course? I will also ping the rescue again about checking in with the vet about switching to Tylan. I'd also like to try Olesia's suggestion of adding back in the fiber that the rescue was giving her, to see if it helps or hurts. I'm just nervous to change too much at once and it's hard to know which thing to try first!

Also- I wanted to add that I connected with the rescue this week and they gave me more detail on how close Hoppy girl was to not making it. The vets were questioning whether it was even humane to keep her alive and the rescue had just barely nursed her back to the point that she could come home with me. Now she's developing into quite the adventurous, playful happy dog. So grateful for this support. Even if we aren't fully there yet, something is working!
Harper is a gorgeous and sweet, 1 1/2-year-old sable GSD. She was so close to losing her life when she was saved by a German Shepard rescue and tested for EPI. She's slowly gaining weight but is still on the time consuming journey of figuring out what works for her. Grateful every day for this forum.

User avatar
Olesia711
Founder & Research Director
Posts: 3857
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy
My name: olesia

Re: Hoppy the EPI Foster Dog

Post by Olesia711 » 31 Jan 2023, 12:20

ahhh...... thanks for posting some details about Hoppy's slow progress and outward signs.... for example this comment "Her stool is now mostly back to cow plops-- better than liquid, but was hoping for more progress, and I'm still hearing a lot of tummy sounds." is HUGE clue and coud very likely be the underlying problem. if so... then I now suspect that probably the enzymes/enzyme dose are working just fine, but the underlying issue is out of control SID..... due to "lots of tummy sounds"

this is typical with Metronidazole antibiotic for SID .. it very often does nothing.... and it destroys ALL the bacteria in the gut. Not good.
Maybe be a little more forceful with the rescue and tell them you need and want to stop the Metronidazole and replace it with Tylan. ASAP. If they will not oblige, talk to your regular vet and tell them you want to stop the Metro and start with a course of Tylan.... and that about 1/2 thru the course of 45 days of Tylan you will then want to implement either Proviable or Visbiome via your regular vet.

REgarding"My latest question is: should I start adding a little slippery elm? And should I start at the same time as I start the b12?" Although B12 is more important.... you would be best to start new additions one-at-a-time.... and if SLippery Elm powder will produce a positive response within a day or two if it is going to help (where as B12 takes longer) ... so give SLippery Elm powder 1st. Give it 3 days..... if you see absolutely no positives improvement at all......say ..... then stop and keep for later use if needed and start the B12. If you do see positive results from the Slippery Elm after 3 days continue with the Slippery Elm and start the B12. Great thing about B12 is if Hoppy doesn't need it, she will just excrete any excess.

Hold off on the Honest kitchen..... lets see what the SLippery Elm does............

Oh WOW!!!!!!!!!! So you are truly Hoppy's guardian earth angel.... sounds like she almost wasn't given a 2nd chance until you came along... WOW, WOW WOW!!! You are truly dong a great job with her.... but it does take a LOT of patience especially in the beginning until you figure out what does and doesn't work and how much to adjust things to agree with Hoppy's system. BUt one it all comes together, the recovery is amazing.... and we will help you as best we can to get you there :)
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

Barb
Staff
Posts: 918
Country: United States
State: New Jersey

Re: Hoppy the EPI Foster Dog

Post by Barb » 01 Feb 2023, 15:15

I second Olesia's WOWS! You have done an amazing job with Hoppy. Wonderful, wonderful, wonderful. Thank you for not giving up on her. And thank you for sharing that information. It gives others who are struggling hope for their own pups. It is so hard to see them struggling, but so rewarding when you get everything balanced and they start acting like healthy pups.

Thank you for giving Hoppy a second chance.

Barb

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