German Shepherd - Soft poos, more than 6 per day and losing weight

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
cozminmihai
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Posts: 19
Country: Ireland
Pet name: KAIA
My name: Mihai

Re: German Shepherd - Soft poos, more than 6 per day and losing weight

Post by cozminmihai » 21 Jun 2022, 17:22

Patsy wrote: 21 Jun 2022, 16:22 Hello, I couldn’t see a poo picture, so what colour is it ? Epi can be quite obvious, but the specific blood test is definitive. It’s yes or no. Also test the B12 level.
Please suggest it to your vet. Many of them never see epi, and as it is rare, they don’t remember it. Politely suggesting it may be a great help to to everyone. The porcine enzymes that the vet can sell, cost more than getting them online, no prescription required. It is impossible to get a small quantity, but Chemeyes, who know epi GSDs, may be able to assist.
Do let us know, because then we can clarify what else needs to be started. It’s a night,are at first with sick dogs, we’ve all been there. But usually it gets better!
Hi Patsy,

Sorry for not attaching them initially, I thought I did. Please see attached now. Color is browny most times and soft like cow poo. There were times when it was more liquidy, but changing the food from 24% protein to 18% protein and fewer fats, improved the poos slightly.

We are currently taking Lypax(attached) for the past three weeks, but no improvement so far.

Some people suggested Kochi Free as this helped them in a very similar situation to mine.

Is a scan required, what do you think?

Also, are the enzymes given now good enough for the time being, until further tests are completed?
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Jean
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Posts: 1547
Location: South Liverpool
Country: United Kingdom - England
Pet name: Kara, lost 10th May 2019
My name: Jean

Re: German Shepherd - Soft poos, more than 6 per day and losing weight

Post by Jean » 21 Jun 2022, 17:47

and I remember that poo well
My name is Jean we live in Liverpool in Uk

I am the Forum Director which I am very proud of

My Kara born 21 July 2009 diagnosed with EPI by cTLI test August 2010 TLI = <1...folate 14 Cobalamin 408, shot down to 94, b12 injections every other day

Lowest weight 39 pounds

We used Panzym enzymes, Tylan and Chemeyes b12 capsules

Sadly, on 10th May 2019, we lost her to DM


Jeanx

cozminmihai
Member
Posts: 19
Country: Ireland
Pet name: KAIA
My name: Mihai

Re: German Shepherd - Soft poos, more than 6 per day and losing weight

Post by cozminmihai » 21 Jun 2022, 18:04

Jean wrote: 21 Jun 2022, 17:19 ok

how many are you giving per meal. are you opening the capsule and sprinkling on the food if you are feeding kibble you will need a small amount of wet food to make the enzymes stick you mix and serve Immediately we used a tablespoon of cat food when we used Lypex qre you giving any food of any sort without enzymes .and how many meals per day. when I say food I mean anything that goes in the mouthful
Feeding twice a day, kibbles mainly, sometimes mixed with tuna or eggs. One capsule of the enzyme is opened with each meal and sprinkled over food. In between these two meals, some chicken or beef treats without any enzymes, but small amounts.

Can I wet the kibbles a bit for the enzyme to stick? If fish is used from a can, this is a bit oily, sufficient for the enzymes to stick, I hope.

cozminmihai
Member
Posts: 19
Country: Ireland
Pet name: KAIA
My name: Mihai

Re: German Shepherd - Soft poos, more than 6 per day and losing weight

Post by cozminmihai » 21 Jun 2022, 18:22

Jean wrote: 21 Jun 2022, 17:19 ok

how many are you giving per meal. are you opening the capsule and sprinkling on the food if you are feeding kibble you will need a small amount of wet food to make the enzymes stick you mix and serve Immediately we used a tablespoon of cat food when we used Lypex qre you giving any food of any sort without enzymes .and how many meals per day. when I say food I mean anything that goes in the mouthful
1 capsule of enzymes per meal, sprinkled over food. Two meals a day. In between, few small chicken or beef treats without enzymes.

Can I wet the kibbles to ensure the enzymes are mixing well and start working before feeding her?

cozminmihai
Member
Posts: 19
Country: Ireland
Pet name: KAIA
My name: Mihai

Re: German Shepherd - Soft poos, more than 6 per day and losing weight

Post by cozminmihai » 21 Jun 2022, 18:26

cozminmihai wrote: 21 Jun 2022, 18:04
Jean wrote: 21 Jun 2022, 17:19 ok

how many are you giving per meal. are you opening the capsule and sprinkling on the food if you are feeding kibble you will need a small amount of wet food to make the enzymes stick you mix and serve Immediately we used a tablespoon of cat food when we used Lypex qre you giving any food of any sort without enzymes .and how many meals per day. when I say food I mean anything that goes in the mouthful
Feeding twice a day, kibbles mainly, sometimes mixed with tuna or eggs. One capsule of the enzyme is opened with each meal and sprinkled over food. In between these two meals, some chicken or beef treats without any enzymes, but small amounts.

Can I wet the kibbles a bit for the enzyme to stick? If fish is used from a can, this is a bit oily, sufficient for the enzymes to stick, I hope.
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Olesia711
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Posts: 2582
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy
My name: olesia

Re: German Shepherd - Soft poos, more than 6 per day and losing weight

Post by Olesia711 » 21 Jun 2022, 18:43

Hi Mihai, thank you for posting those pictures.... although it could always be something else, it sure does look like EPI poos!
Ask your vet to run the cTLI test... as this is the gold standard to confirm EPI.

Lypex IS the right kind of enzymes.... BUT... sometimes even when giving the right kind of enzymes it may appear like it is not working if you are not giving enough, not preparing it properly, giving food with too much grain in it... OR..... the biggie, when first starting out with EPi treatment is many times you ARE doing everything right, even after "tweaking" some things and what might be going on is tht the enzymes are working BUT SID (small intestinal dysbiosis) which all dogs with EPI have to one degree or another.... may be so out of control that it looks like the enzymes aren't working.

SOOOOOOOoooooooooo the way we address things are 1 step at a time.
Please follow and answer Jean's advice as she lives in the UK and is more familiar with the UK / European drugs and what dosage really works....like Lypex. You may not be giving enough, or not opening the capsule and serving on damp/moist food, or the food may not be best for your dog.

Once we get thru the above to make sure all is being done correctly and if still no improvement.... THEN, and if this is EPI, what you are dealing with is SID.

The way to treat SID is also a step by step process.
1. First give prebiotic.... if that doesn't work then
2. give a pre+probiotic.... if that doesn't firm up the poo... then
3. TELL your vet you want your dog placed on Tylan (Tylosin Tartrate soluble powder antibiotic 100 grams). Some vets still balk at this but it is your dog, your money and it is highly recommended by veterinarian researchers proficient in treating EPI. Please see the tab on this website page labeled MANAGING EPI , then look at the tab labeled SID/SIBO.... and please check out at the various pages, specifically : SID/SIBO Management, SID/SIBO, MICROBIOME Research and
SID Antibiotics.

SID/SIBO
SID/SIBO
SID/SIBO in Brief
SID Testing
SID/SIBO Management
SID/SIBO, MICROBIOME Research
SID Antibiotics
Possible Alternatives to Antibiotics
Slippery Elm
PreBiotics and ProBiotics
Fecal Transplants

Hopefully this helps!.... BUT.... please work with Jean..... she will guide you with specifics in your country.
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

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Jean
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Posts: 1547
Location: South Liverpool
Country: United Kingdom - England
Pet name: Kara, lost 10th May 2019
My name: Jean

Re: German Shepherd - Soft poos, more than 6 per day and losing weight

Post by Jean » 22 Jun 2022, 04:56

you sadly cannot give ANYTHING except water and medication without enzymes, and its hard

when Kara was diagnosed in 2010 she was 39 pounds in weight at 14 months old and a skeleton, we were referred to Small Animal Hospita. on the Wirral Merseyside as part of a trial for Lypex

I quickly learned that the doseage on the box was totally inadequate for a GSD, we experimented and it ended up being 5 Lypex per meal , we started her on grain free duck and potato kibble she could never tolerate chicken or poultry fat in dog food which seems to be familiar among EPI dogs

the senior vet told us to give her 50% over and above the amount of food suggested on the food bag for the weight she SHOULD be which was 90 pounds over say 5 meals a day all enzymed the 50% is one that EPI4DOGS also recommend short term only until the weight has been regained

as you can imagine one box of 60 casules was lasting a couple of days

we started her on Tylosin (Tylan) as an antibiotic , the alternative was Oxytetracycline, but that needs to be given on an empty stomach so its not user friendly

so we looked for another enzyme, Panzym was the one we used for 8 years , and I woud recommend it

we were never able to get below 3 Lypex per meal and this was echo'd among the UK members

I would increase the Lypex bit by bit starting at two per meal and yes you can dampen the Kibble , you could even grind it , and dampen it so the enzymes will stick, Kara loved Tuna

sorry no more teats without enzymes, she cannot if she has EPI, digest anything

its a lot to take in but that poo is very like EPI undigested food, and very reminiscent

if you would like to talk on the phone please let me know

I am not sure what your customs allow life is never easy

Jeanxx
My name is Jean we live in Liverpool in Uk

I am the Forum Director which I am very proud of

My Kara born 21 July 2009 diagnosed with EPI by cTLI test August 2010 TLI = <1...folate 14 Cobalamin 408, shot down to 94, b12 injections every other day

Lowest weight 39 pounds

We used Panzym enzymes, Tylan and Chemeyes b12 capsules

Sadly, on 10th May 2019, we lost her to DM


Jeanx

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Patsy
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Posts: 227
Country: United Kingdom - England

Re: German Shepherd - Soft poos, more than 6 per day and losing weight

Post by Patsy » 22 Jun 2022, 10:12

I agree totally with Jean . Marti, a springer spaniel, had to have at least two lypex.every meal. Jean has challenged the company re the instructions . It’s obvious that dogs eat different amounts of food .
The photos show that the food isn’t properly digested, but at least they are brownish, not pastel. Proper enzyme dose will deal with the fat. It’s not a drug, it’s replacement enzymes for what the dogs pancreas can’t produce.
My dog passed away from a weak heart aged 11, and lived with epi for 8yrs. It was expensive but she didn’t need pricey operations . My husband didn’t ask how much because he spends £xx money on his old vehicles and garden machinery!
Springer spaniel Marti had Epi, PLE , MMM just to confuse me. She lived till 12yrs, chubby and happy despite eight years of epi.
Capsule enzymes suited her best. B12 supplements made her into a new dog!
After a cocker with PLN kidney disease, I now have two healthy rescues, a lively, suicidal , small ginger terrier, adopted with pneumonia, and gum disease needing nearly all his teeth out, and a fluffy grey toy poodle/terrier from Greece.

cozminmihai
Member
Posts: 19
Country: Ireland
Pet name: KAIA
My name: Mihai

Re: German Shepherd - Soft poos, more than 6 per day and losing weight

Post by cozminmihai » 27 Jun 2022, 17:58

Jean wrote: 22 Jun 2022, 04:56 you sadly cannot give ANYTHING except water and medication without enzymes, and its hard

when Kara was diagnosed in 2010 she was 39 pounds in weight at 14 months old and a skeleton, we were referred to Small Animal Hospita. on the Wirral Merseyside as part of a trial for Lypex

I quickly learned that the doseage on the box was totally inadequate for a GSD, we experimented and it ended up being 5 Lypex per meal , we started her on grain free duck and potato kibble she could never tolerate chicken or poultry fat in dog food which seems to be familiar among EPI dogs

the senior vet told us to give her 50% over and above the amount of food suggested on the food bag for the weight she SHOULD be which was 90 pounds over say 5 meals a day all enzymed the 50% is one that EPI4DOGS also recommend short term only until the weight has been regained

as you can imagine one box of 60 casules was lasting a couple of days

we started her on Tylosin (Tylan) as an antibiotic , the alternative was Oxytetracycline, but that needs to be given on an empty stomach so its not user friendly

so we looked for another enzyme, Panzym was the one we used for 8 years , and I woud recommend it

we were never able to get below 3 Lypex per meal and this was echo'd among the UK members

I would increase the Lypex bit by bit starting at two per meal and yes you can dampen the Kibble , you could even grind it , and dampen it so the enzymes will stick, Kara loved Tuna

sorry no more teats without enzymes, she cannot if she has EPI, digest anything

its a lot to take in but that poo is very like EPI undigested food, and very reminiscent

if you would like to talk on the phone please let me know

I am not sure what your customs allow life is never easy

Jeanxx
Hi Jean,

Your help is amazing I have much better hopes now.

Lypex is expensive as it is, especially if I have to increase the dose a lot.

Is tylosine still needed if EPI was confirmed?

I heard about Chemeyes powder enzymes which are more affordable and easier to increase or decrease until the right dose is found.

I would love to speak to you to discuss in more details, when would you be available, please?

Thank you!
Mihai

cozminmihai
Member
Posts: 19
Country: Ireland
Pet name: KAIA
My name: Mihai

Re: German Shepherd - Soft poos, more than 6 per day and losing weight

Post by cozminmihai » 28 Jun 2022, 08:20

Olesia711 wrote: 21 Jun 2022, 18:43 Hi Mihai, thank you for posting those pictures.... although it could always be something else, it sure does look like EPI poos!
Ask your vet to run the cTLI test... as this is the gold standard to confirm EPI.

Lypex IS the right kind of enzymes.... BUT... sometimes even when giving the right kind of enzymes it may appear like it is not working if you are not giving enough, not preparing it properly, giving food with too much grain in it... OR..... the biggie, when first starting out with EPi treatment is many times you ARE doing everything right, even after "tweaking" some things and what might be going on is tht the enzymes are working BUT SID (small intestinal dysbiosis) which all dogs with EPI have to one degree or another.... may be so out of control that it looks like the enzymes aren't working.

SOOOOOOOoooooooooo the way we address things are 1 step at a time.
Please follow and answer Jean's advice as she lives in the UK and is more familiar with the UK / European drugs and what dosage really works....like Lypex. You may not be giving enough, or not opening the capsule and serving on damp/moist food, or the food may not be best for your dog.

Once we get thru the above to make sure all is being done correctly and if still no improvement.... THEN, and if this is EPI, what you are dealing with is SID.

The way to treat SID is also a step by step process.
1. First give prebiotic.... if that doesn't work then
2. give a pre+probiotic.... if that doesn't firm up the poo... then
3. TELL your vet you want your dog placed on Tylan (Tylosin Tartrate soluble powder antibiotic 100 grams). Some vets still balk at this but it is your dog, your money and it is highly recommended by veterinarian researchers proficient in treating EPI. Please see the tab on this website page labeled MANAGING EPI , then look at the tab labeled SID/SIBO.... and please check out at the various pages, specifically : SID/SIBO Management, SID/SIBO, MICROBIOME Research and
SID Antibiotics.

SID/SIBO
SID/SIBO
SID/SIBO in Brief
SID Testing
SID/SIBO Management
SID/SIBO, MICROBIOME Research
SID Antibiotics
Possible Alternatives to Antibiotics
Slippery Elm
PreBiotics and ProBiotics
Fecal Transplants

Hopefully this helps!.... BUT.... please work with Jean..... she will guide you with specifics in your country.
Thank you so much Olesia.

I'm working with Jean, she already provided great advice and support, even puting me in contact with other owners who dealt with this type issues.

This has been amazing for me, gaining hopes and confidence that everything will be fine shortly.

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