New to EPI. Weight gain question

[Kayla_h]

Hello, this is my first time posting.

Our 14.5 year old Vizsla Mya has suspected EPI. Did not have the cTLI test done (yet). She has all of the symptoms in addition to performing the Schebo fecal test from Enzyme Diane, results suggesting she has EPI. We started Pan-tenex 10x enzymes about 1.5 weeks ago. We are seeing great improvements in her stool and overall well-being. However, we haven't noticed any weight gain yet. I'm wondering how long it can take to see any sort of weight gain? We are feeding 150% of her normal food intake. Her normal weight in recent years has been around 40 lbs. She's currently 31 lbs.

This is what her day looks like in terms of meals.

𝐌𝐨𝐫𝐧𝐢𝐧𝐠: 2 cups of Smallbatch raw turkey + freezedried mixed, 3/4 tsp of Pan-tenex enzymes, Wonderlabs Vitamin B12 with intrinsic factor.

(Shortly after morning meal she gets low dose Selegiline - medication for Cognition)

𝐄𝐯𝐞𝐧𝐢𝐧𝐠: 2 cups of Smallbatch raw turkey + freezedried mixed, 3/4 tsp of Pan-tenex enzymes, Lions Mane Mushroom Powder (for cognition)

In addition, we have been occasionally adding raw green tripe to up her food intake. Any suggestions or do we need to be patient and give it time to see weight gain?

[jilbert57]

Hi Kayla! Good to see you on here.
First thing that I see is the ratio of food to enzymes. Pantenex 10, when you compare to Dianes 6x is almost equivalent in Lipase. Regular canned food is 3/4 t per cup of canned. Since you are feeding 2c small batch plus freeze dried mix, I would up the enzymes to 1.5 t per meal. (3/4 t per each 1c small batch). How much freeze dried mix goes with each meal? Small Batch is great food.

At which time you do the fasting Tli have them run B12 also.

If you add raw tripe make sure it is enzymed.
Let us know if you notice weight gain after an increase in enzymes.


Is she getting a pro or prebiotic?

Jill

[Kayla_h]

Hi Jill, thank you!

I should clarify, the freezedried and raw mixed combined equals out to 2 cups per meal once the freezedried is rehydrated. She's spoiled & prefers both Do you still recommend increasing the amount to 1.5 tsp/meal? I think I was just going off of the directions from Pantenex.

Yes, if we add tripe it is also incubated with enzymes.
If we do end up doing the TLI test we plan to have the full panel done.

She is not currently getting a pre or probiotic. I'm nervous to add that with the selegiline? We do have Slippery Elm bark here.

[jilbert57]

The enzymes are dosed by the amount of food fed. So I would do 3/4 t for each cup of small batch.

Are you hearing burps, grumbly tummy or acid indigestion?

If you are I would add the SE at mealtime then give Seligilene maybe half hr to 1hr after the morning meal.

If you aren't hearing any noises the enzymes might do the work and maybe hold off on SE.

Jill

[Kayla_h]

Thank you Jill!
I just did 1 tsp for the 2 cups of food before you responded.. it's currently incubating this is an increase to what she was previously getting.

I'm not sure if it's indigestion but she does have a little cough once in awhile like there's something she's trying to get up, and it's usually after she eats. Occasional tummy grumbles, but nothing like what it was prior to enzymes.

I think for now we will try the increased enzymes for a few days and see how it goes and add SE if no improvement. Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge and your time.

[Tuckaboo Pam]

Hi Kayl;a, and welcome to you and Mya.

The question about stomach rumbles concerns SID, and ALL EPI dogs have it.

You may go ahead & see how just the enzymes work for a few days...when I have used Pantenx I have used the 1 teaspoon enzymes per 1 cup of kibble method with success, regardless of what the jar says. And then try adding a small amount of slippery elm. Odds are, you will need to address her SID.

Is Mya hungry, after she eats 150% of what she'd eat at 40 pounds? Are you able to split her meals into at least two per day? Three is even better.

Are you willing to get some Wonderlabs Intrinsic Factor B12 and give her a capsule each day? This is an important part of the equation for EPI treatment. She hasn't been tested, but she may well need it, and an excess of B12 is just peed out.

I don't remember how long it took Tucker to gain his weight, but he went from 60 to 85, and I thought he looked like he had gained five pounds. I was floored when he was weighed.

So I would say focus on Mya's poo & the tummy rumblings, make sure you are feeding her enough, and she will start gaining weight.

Take Care---Pam

[Kayla_h]

Hi Pam, thank you so much for the reply & the warm welcome!

Below is currently what Mya's daily meals look like with raw fed.

𝐌𝐨𝐫𝐧𝐢𝐧𝐠:
•Smallbatch raw turkey & freezedried mixed= 2 cups •3/4 tsp of Pantenex enzymes
•Wonderlabs Vitamin B12 with intrinsic factor.

(Shortly after morning meal she gets low dose Selegiline - medication for Cognition)

𝐄𝐯𝐞𝐧𝐢𝐧𝐠:
•Smallbatch raw turkey & freezedried mixed= 2 cups •3/4 tsp of Pantenex enzymes
•Lions Mane Mushroom Powder (for cognition)

She does seem like she could still be hungry after eating her meals (2 cups/ea). Its hard to tell though because her entire life she's always loved food and very food motivated. Our girl loves food!
She does have occasional stomach rumbles, but they are better since starting enzymes. We do have Tylosin on hand should we need it. We also have Slippery Elm. If we add Slippery Elm. What meal should it be added to? Do you know if it can be given with medications or should it be given seperate?

Jill so kindly suggested to increase the amount of Pantenex 10x enzymes per raw cup of food. It did seem like the food to enzyme ratio was off, I appreciate that being pointed out. I was going off of Pantenex dosage instructions.

[Olesia711]

i agree with Jill and Pam... definitely increase the enzymes!

And as mentioned above all dog with EPI have SID to one degree or another.... we don't know how to get rid of SID (yet) but we do know what to try to keep it in good control.

So... unless you have SID Symptoms.... which it doesn't really sound like you do now..... but you might in the near future..... in which case, we will help you step by step to treat.

Regarding the weight gain..... that is pretty much an individual dog thing.... some dogs start gaining weight right away, others can take up to 2 years!!! What you can try adding is a little coconut oil (start with 1/2 tsp per meal) watch the stools to make sure poos continue to remain decent... if so... you can increase to 1 tsp per meal.

Coconut oil (the good stuff... cold pressed/organic.... not Lou Anns brand from walmart used for baking!) is a nice MCT that often helps put on weight.

Also, just a personal note..... my EPI gal ate way more than 150% of what was required for her body size and that was just to "maintain" and she hoovered around 35 lbs... to put it in perspective.... she ate more than double what my 65lb very active male dog ate! (same breed)

[Kayla_h]

Thank you so much for the valuable info, Olesia.

Some days I look at her and think her ribs aren't so prominent and she looks to be gaining some but the scale tells otherwise. She's not losing weight so that's a positive.

I'm not sure if we are dealing with SID right now. Her stools look great, her appetite is good, but one thing I have noticed is her stomach has been making noise off and on. We did increase the Pantenex to 1 tsp/2 cups of raw a few days ago. Also, I gave her slippery elm which seems to help the tummy grumbles some.

We do have a vet appt in a few weeks and are considering having the TLI blood test done at that time to get some numbers, unless you don't think that is necessary since she is responding well to treatment.


♡ Kayla + Mya

[Olesia711]

ahhh... that might be the problem... and why you are hearing tummy noises (SID) if you just increased the Pantenex to 1 tsp enzymes per 2 cups of food... you are still way under-dosing with the enzymes (if this is EPI!)

The least you should be giving (in the beginning) is 1+1/2 tsp enzymes per 2 cups of food...but i would even go more..... and do 1+3/4 tsp of enzymes per 2 cups of raw/fresh food

If you were feeding kibble, then the ratio should be approx 2 tsp enzyme per 2 cups of food