Ruger - New Case Trying to Stabilize

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
SallieS
Member
Posts: 17
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Ruger
My name: Sallie

Ruger - New Case Trying to Stabilize

Post by SallieS » 12 Aug 2022, 20:09

Hi Everyone, I’m Sallie. I’m Ruger’s mom. We have just been diagnosed on August 1, which was the day Ruger was 5 months old. When diagnosed our vet gave us the pill enzymes. They worked somewhat, but did not ever stop the diarrhea completely. We started the powder enzymes yesterday. We still have mush poops. We are feeding him Hill’s Science Diet Large Breed Puppy Chicken and Barley but thinking of changing him to the Hill’s Science Diet Large Breed Lamb and Brown Rice. We have been dealing with diarrhea for almost 2 months. Any advice would be welcome. I’m overwhelmed and just want to get him stabilized with good poops.

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Jean
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Location: South Liverpool
Country: United Kingdom - England
Pet name: Kara, lost 10th May 2019
My name: Jean

Re: Ruger - New Case Trying to Stabilize

Post by Jean » 13 Aug 2022, 04:33

Good morning Sallie and Ruger

we are from the Uk but EPI in any language is the same thing

ok

so can you give us a potted history of how you got him diagnosed

Questions

what weight is he ?

has he any rumbling tum noises

what amount of tablet enzymes are you giving to say a cup of food,

which are the tablet enzymes

how often are you feeding

the recommendation is 50% over and above what is on the food packet for the weight the dog SHOULD be over a few meals all enzymed

there is no need to feed a "prescription" diet unless there is another condition

for reasons unknown some dont do well on chicken and any kind of grain, rice included

You might want to look for a grain free chicken and rice free food

keep a diary/log of anything you do and record daily, its invaluable to the vet

finally what breed is Ruger

i am well versed in the mess that comes out of them which is undigested food in the main

we had Kara for 9 years with EPI and its very manageable
My name is Jean we live in Liverpool in Uk

I am the Forum Director which I am very proud of

My Kara born 21 July 2009 diagnosed with EPI by cTLI test August 2010 TLI = <1...folate 14 Cobalamin 408, shot down to 94, b12 injections every other day

Lowest weight 39 pounds

We used Panzym enzymes, Tylan and Chemeyes b12 capsules

Sadly, on 10th May 2019, we lost her to DM


Jeanx

Tuckaboo Pam
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Country: United States
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Pet name: Tucker
My name: Pam H.

Re: Ruger - New Case Trying to Stabilize

Post by Tuckaboo Pam » 13 Aug 2022, 07:53

Hi Sallie, and welcome to you and to Ruger. We have all been where you are now, and I'm sure you are feeling overwhelmed, tired of diarrhea, and thinking of making adjustments to the financial aspect of this EPI thing.

I will restate some of what Jean has already said. EPI treatment is made up of four main categories. You may do additional reading under the "Managing EPI" tab.

ENZYMES at every meal. 1 teaspoon enzymes, to 1 cup of kibble. Add room temperature liquid, and allow to sit for 20-30 minutes. Play with the amount of liquid, as every dog is different. If Ruger snubs his nose at the taste, top the dish with a dollop of something yummy. Parmesan or cottage cheese, tuna, sardines, or grain free canned food, for example.

DIET should be grain-free, as grains interfere with enzyme absorption. Less than 4% fiber, no peas and white potatoes, or either way down the list of ingredients ( better none at all). Avoiding chicken as the main protein may also be a good idea for some dogs. I believe Sport Dog Elite has a puppy version that fits the bill. Feed Ruger 150% of the amount the bag says to feed him if his weight were ideal, break this into 3-4 meals per day. 4 would be best for a puppy. I buy from the company or from Amazon.

B12, Wonderlabs B12 with intrinsic factor can be found online, from the company or on Amazon. Probably one capsule per day, but I may be corrected because Ruger is a puppy. When you post your test results we'll be better able to advise you on this.

SID(some vets still call it SIBO) has an entire tab of its own on this website. ALL EPI dogs have it, and it may sometimes be the key to successful treatment. You should go ahead & order Slippery elm; you will know, after a few days, if it's going to work. If it doesn't work you can ask your vet for the specific antibiotic, TYLAN. Do not give Ruger metronidazole. It is often the first thing offered, but the most current research shows it to be harmful in the long run.

Chin up, you can do this. EPI IS manageable, but sometimes you have to fiddle around until you figure it out for your dog. A good idea is to keep a journal of the steps you take & the result, and to make only one change at a time. Also, https://enzymediane.com/ is a good place to buy enzymes. I use 6X porcine enzymes, and so do many others who are members of this forum.

Ask all the questions you want, and know you have come to the right place for help. Take Care---Pam & Tucker in FL.
Tucker was a shepherd/lab mix--- TLI 1.3, Folate 9.7, Cobalamin 666, Lipase 38. Took Diane's Enzymes 4 teaspoons/day, Wonderlabs B12 one capsule per day, and Tylan 1/16 teaspoon/ morning (to hold SID at bay). Taste of the Wild High Prairie, 1 1/2 cups/day, with a total of 4 cups of Fresh Pet. Stopped eating everything in sight, and went from 60 to 85 pounds! Tucker was my boyfriend, and my husband was OK with that. Tucker succumbed to hemangiosarcoma, but we cherished every day we had with that wonderful, beautiful boy. I will always, always miss my sweet big boy.

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jilbert57
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Re: Ruger - New Case Trying to Stabilize

Post by jilbert57 » 13 Aug 2022, 08:49

Welcome. You have been given good advice to help get your pup on the road to recovery. Please get your test results diagnosing Epi and post them for us. It would be the Tli, and Folate and B12 if tested.
Please look around on the site there is a lot of information here.

Jill
My name is Jill and we live on the Hood Canal in Washington State. We currently have 2 Jack russells, TJ is 8 and Sadie is 2.

Mickey and his pancreatitis brought me to Epi4dogs.com site in 2012 to help manage it.
He lived from 6/99 - 8/2014

Mickey, Jack Russell. Chronic Pancreatitis. Dianes enzymes, 1/8t 3x/day with meals.

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Olesia711
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Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy
My name: olesia

Re: Ruger - New Case Trying to Stabilize

Post by Olesia711 » 13 Aug 2022, 11:13

Hi Sallie and welcome to you and Ruger!

I just read through all the posts on this thread and am looking forward to hearing your response so that we can maybe be more specific in helping you get Ruger stable !
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

SallieS
Member
Posts: 17
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Ruger
My name: Sallie

Re: Ruger - New Case Trying to Stabilize

Post by SallieS » 13 Aug 2022, 15:10

Hi Jean, Pam, Jill and Olesia,
I can’t tell you how much your responses mean to me. It is so wonderful to know someone is out there and willing to help.

First, let me apologize for the lengthy post. I’ll let you know what we’ve done and been through so far.

Starting from the beginning, our little Ruger is a black German Shepherd. He turned 5 months old on the day of his diagnosis. He currently weighs 39 pounds. We’ve been fortunate through this that he has not lost weight, but he is underweight and has slowed on his growth.

He started with diarrhea in mid June. When that happened I started feeding him boiled chicken and rice, but it didn’t stop the diarrhea. After more than a week and several calls to the vet, she prescribed Flagyl and Amforol and I continued the chicken and rice. His poops got better, but they were still not normal and as soon as he finished the meds he was back to thin, mush poop. Our vet suggested changing his food to the Hill’s Science Diet Puppy food, so I tried to ween him over. His poops were so awful I couldn’t make any progress with the weening. The vet finally prescribed another round of Amforol and a probiotic and told me to get the food changed regardless of diarrhea because we needed to get the puppy food in him. So, we made the transition with raging diarrhea and the meds were not helping.

At this point our vet told us about EPI and we requested the test. She said Ruger is on the low side of normal for enzymes and B-12 and folate were good. These are the results:
Spec cPL 38
Trypsin-like 13.3
Immuno-reactivity (TLI) only indicates an “a” which the notes at the bottom of the paper says Chemistry “a” indicates normal exocrine pancreatic function
B-12 735
Folate 15.9

The vet put us on PancreVed tables, 1 given 10 minutes before each meal and told me to increase his food from 1 cup to 1 1/2 cups. We feed him 3 times per day. When we didn’t get good results we increased to 2 tables with each meal. His poops were slowly getting better and we were down to 1 or 2 poops per day (better than the sometimes 6 poops per day). The poops would have shape at the beginning but then become thin mush, but the mush was seeming to get a little thicker.

On Tuesday of this week something, and I have no idea what, changed and the diarrhea started raging again. We were back to gassy, liquid and 6 times a day. So, on Thursday the vet switched us to the PancreVed powder enzymes. I started that Thursday night. I had read on the forum 1 tsp per cup kibble, so I gave him 1 1/2 cups kibble with 1 1/2 tsp enzymes then waited 20 minutes before feeding. I was putting the powder on the food and then adding water/stirring. I don’t know if it makes a difference, but this morning I tried mixing the enzymes in water and pouring that over the food. After feeding I throw about 4 pieces of food in his water bowl so he can “Bob” for kibble to clean his mouth.

Last night his poop was still liquid mush. His first poop this morning was a lot better. Most of it had shape. The first 2 pieces were firm, but then got softer. I was able to pick it up without leaving much residue. I was thrilled!! However, he pooped again an hour and a half later with not much shape and mush, but on the bright side the mush was thicker than last night. While it left a good bit of residue, I was able to pick some of it up.

Is it normal to go back and forth like that or should I be seeing consistently better? It’s been about 4 hours since that last poop so I’m hopeful that we won’t poop much more today.

Sorry again for the lengthy reply. I hope I’m explaining things in a helpful way.

I’ll go to Amazon and look at the Sport Mix brand because it sure seems like every puppy food out there is chicken and rice. I already have slippery elm in the Amazon cart.

Thank you all so very much.

Barb
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Posts: 918
Country: United States
State: New Jersey

Re: Ruger - New Case Trying to Stabilize

Post by Barb » 13 Aug 2022, 15:20

Hi, Sallie. A very warm welcome to you and Ruger. As Pam said, we have all been where you are. The beginning stage is the hardest because you are on a steep learning curve trying to balance everything and worrying about your pup at the same time. It will get better! Once you answer the questions others have asked, we can help you get Ruger on the way to good health. Try not to get discouraged, although I know that is not easy. Keeping a log/journal will help. Record everything you give Ruger each day, the amounts and the resulting poos. This will help you to see what is working and what needs to be adjusted.

Hang in there!

Barb

SallieS
Member
Posts: 17
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Ruger
My name: Sallie

Re: Ruger - New Case Trying to Stabilize

Post by SallieS » 13 Aug 2022, 15:25

I looked at the test results again and think I should have written:
Trypsin-like Immuno-reactivity (TLI) 13.3

It’s broken into 2 lines on the test results paper, so I was not realizing it was 1 result.

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jilbert57
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Country: United States
State: Washington

Re: Ruger - New Case Trying to Stabilize

Post by jilbert57 » 13 Aug 2022, 15:29

The Tli score of 13.3 is in the normal range indicating your pup does not have Epi.
The B12 and Folate are in normal range. Has he been checked for parasites?

https://epi4dogs.com/tli-universal-testing/

Jill
My name is Jill and we live on the Hood Canal in Washington State. We currently have 2 Jack russells, TJ is 8 and Sadie is 2.

Mickey and his pancreatitis brought me to Epi4dogs.com site in 2012 to help manage it.
He lived from 6/99 - 8/2014

Mickey, Jack Russell. Chronic Pancreatitis. Dianes enzymes, 1/8t 3x/day with meals.

SallieS
Member
Posts: 17
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Ruger
My name: Sallie

Re: Ruger - New Case Trying to Stabilize

Post by SallieS » 13 Aug 2022, 15:35

Yes, we have dewormed him twice. One round of deworming started at the first vet visit after bringing him home. Then again 3 weeks ago we started another round of deworming just in case there could be whipworms since he was having a lot of mucus in his diarrhea. The second dosage this this round of deworming was given on Thursday of this week.

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