Nothing seems to work...!

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
Post Reply
agnesgal
Member
Posts: 3
Country: Hungary
Pet name: Bailey
My name: Agnes

Nothing seems to work...!

Post by agnesgal » 11 Jan 2022, 11:47

Hey Guys,

First of all, let me say a HUGE thank you for what you do as without you guys we would still have no clue how - at least to try - to manage our doggie (Bailey, 2-year old Lab <3) with his EPI! So absolutely grateful!!! <3

I'm writing from Hungary (EU) where vets do not have much experience with EPI therefore not many solutions offered....

Bailey was diagnosed in July 2021 and we thought we got it covered but it all went south and it does not seem to be stable since September again... :(

He is on:
Home cooked meal (minced turkey (thigh) 75%, chicken liver/heart 10%, the rest: little bit of zucchini, sweet potato or beetroot, sometimes with some rice added (we try to do some trial an error...), calcium)
4 x KREON 10 000 / meal (he eats 3 times/day)
Chemeyes B-12, 1 x /meal (normal dosage pills)
Chemeyes pro-prebiotics (we are not sure if this is needed constantly, currently we stopped after a month or so) :?
sometimes: salmon oil, vitamins etc.

His poop was really OK for a while then since September last year it went into episodes of taking him out every 2 hours - it went on for 1-2 weeks. Then we were able to (who knows why?) keep it under control but the best scenario still seems to be 1-2 days with solid poop, then 2 days diarrhea.
Now the colour of his stool has changed vs the initial diagnosis (where we had that typical yellowish greasy creamy poop) and now the colour is OK (brown) but it has different stages when an episode starts:
1. half of the poop solid then rest is covered by mucus
2. the next "event" contains watery diarrhea - this is usually within the same day or the next.

For now the vet has not yet offered the antibitotics approach - which I have read here might be needed due to SID/SIBO??

Do the good (?) colour and seldom solid poop mean anyhting that we can take into consideration when trying to change treatment? Anything we migth be doing wrong with his food, maybe?

Sorry for the long one, hopefully all makes sense!

Thank you in advance!!!

Take care,
Agi

Tuckaboo Pam
Member
Posts: 1345
Country: United States
State: Florida
Pet name: Tucker
My name: Pam H.

Re: Nothing seems to work...!

Post by Tuckaboo Pam » 11 Jan 2022, 19:47

Hi Agi, and welcome.

I think you were on the right track with the prebiotic, and you may want to go back to it, or try some slippery elm. Additionally, if your vet can possibly give you Tylan antibiotic, you may see good results. Many vets use metronidazole, but that is not a good option as it has bad effects, long term.

For the most part, turkey & chicken are not recommended for EPI dogs. Why, I'm not sure, but many EPI dogs do not tolerate any kind of poultry. So, you may want to try feeding a different kind of meat.

With so many possible changes, it is a good idea to write down everything you do, and record what happens to your dog's poop afterward. I hope this helps! Keep us posted, and ask every question you have. Take Care---Pam & Tucker
Tucker was a shepherd/lab mix--- TLI 1.3, Folate 9.7, Cobalamin 666, Lipase 38. Took Diane's Enzymes 4 teaspoons/day, Wonderlabs B12 one capsule per day, and Tylan 1/16 teaspoon/ morning (to hold SID at bay). Taste of the Wild High Prairie, 1 1/2 cups/day, with a total of 4 cups of Fresh Pet. Stopped eating everything in sight, and went from 60 to 85 pounds! Tucker was my boyfriend, and my husband was OK with that. Tucker succumbed to hemangiosarcoma, but we cherished every day we had with that wonderful, beautiful boy. I will always, always miss my sweet big boy.

agnesgal
Member
Posts: 3
Country: Hungary
Pet name: Bailey
My name: Agnes

Re: Nothing seems to work...!

Post by agnesgal » 12 Jan 2022, 02:16

Hi Pam,

Thanks so much for your input!!

We will try changing his food then. Fingers crossed.
If things won't get better, we'll ask for the antibiotics for sure!

Diary is already in place, indeed helpful.

Will come back with a status update! :)

Thanks a lot,
Agi

Tuckaboo Pam
Member
Posts: 1345
Country: United States
State: Florida
Pet name: Tucker
My name: Pam H.

Re: Nothing seems to work...!

Post by Tuckaboo Pam » 12 Jan 2022, 05:00

Agi---Here is the reason for the slippery elm or antibiotic---

https://epi4dogs.com/sidsibo-in-brief/
Tucker was a shepherd/lab mix--- TLI 1.3, Folate 9.7, Cobalamin 666, Lipase 38. Took Diane's Enzymes 4 teaspoons/day, Wonderlabs B12 one capsule per day, and Tylan 1/16 teaspoon/ morning (to hold SID at bay). Taste of the Wild High Prairie, 1 1/2 cups/day, with a total of 4 cups of Fresh Pet. Stopped eating everything in sight, and went from 60 to 85 pounds! Tucker was my boyfriend, and my husband was OK with that. Tucker succumbed to hemangiosarcoma, but we cherished every day we had with that wonderful, beautiful boy. I will always, always miss my sweet big boy.

User avatar
Patsy
Member
Posts: 264
Country: United Kingdom - England

Re: Nothing seems to work...!

Post by Patsy » 12 Jan 2022, 18:34

Hello from Uk
You’ve made a good start, so maybe it’s time to gently tweak your methods, one at a time.
Pam mentioned possible food issues, and I agree. My dog stopped coping with chicken and rice, and got the mucous sausage skin effect. I experimented with a lot of foods, which I gave to a dog rescue. I eventually found some good ones. Feeding a Labrador on fresh meat will be expensive. I’m certain you can get grain free /pea free commercial foods in Hungary. Raw food can be bought from BARFSHOP.hu
Is there a particular reason you are using Creon, People say it is expensive. Chemeyes supply their own enzymes, which are good.,and cheaper. I used two capsules per meal for my springer spaniel. A Labrador may need three per meal.
Antibiotics are usually needed, do you notice stomach rumbling and very bad smelling wind?
It’s a lot to struggle with at first, but once you get the balance of food and supplements improving, he’ll gain weight and you will get a good routine going.
Springer spaniel Marti had Epi, PLE , MMM just to confuse me. She lived till 12yrs, chubby and happy despite eight years of epi.
Capsule enzymes suited her best. B12 supplements made her into a new dog!
After a cocker with PLN kidney disease, I now have two healthy rescues, a lively, suicidal , small ginger terrier, adopted with pneumonia, and gum disease needing nearly all his teeth out, and a fluffy grey toy poodle/terrier from Greece.

agnesgal
Member
Posts: 3
Country: Hungary
Pet name: Bailey
My name: Agnes

Re: Nothing seems to work...!

Post by agnesgal » 16 Jan 2022, 04:01

Thank you for all your advices!

We have started to feed Bailey with The Taste Of The Wild (Specific stream) and his poop has been solid and basically perfect since then! We kept the the CREON (2x25 000/meal) for now - did not want to change many things at time. Also keeping Chemeyes B12 and probiotics.

Back to why we are using Creon: it has seemed so far that enteric coated pills are working only. We had bought Chemeyes enzymes but they did not work... :(

Now having changed the food, we'll wait for a little while and if all is stable we might see if Chemeyes can be administered again. The issue is just it is now just as expensive as Creon since Brexit with all the taxes added on top... but we'll do whatever it takes to get him stable! :)

So I'll make sure I come back with some status update in due course.

Thanks so much for everything!!! :)

Kind regards,
Agi

Tuckaboo Pam
Member
Posts: 1345
Country: United States
State: Florida
Pet name: Tucker
My name: Pam H.

Re: Nothing seems to work...!

Post by Tuckaboo Pam » 16 Jan 2022, 07:37

Hi Agnes! This is wonderful news!

It seems there is a shortage of pig pancreas, so the price of enzymes may start going up. We are all hoping the price will go back down, once the supply is no longer limited. Keep up the good work, and please stay in touch!---Pam & Tucker

You may find some useful information in the thread about Enzyme Diane, the comment posted by Jean, who lives in the UK.
Tucker was a shepherd/lab mix--- TLI 1.3, Folate 9.7, Cobalamin 666, Lipase 38. Took Diane's Enzymes 4 teaspoons/day, Wonderlabs B12 one capsule per day, and Tylan 1/16 teaspoon/ morning (to hold SID at bay). Taste of the Wild High Prairie, 1 1/2 cups/day, with a total of 4 cups of Fresh Pet. Stopped eating everything in sight, and went from 60 to 85 pounds! Tucker was my boyfriend, and my husband was OK with that. Tucker succumbed to hemangiosarcoma, but we cherished every day we had with that wonderful, beautiful boy. I will always, always miss my sweet big boy.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 240 guests